What Is Needed From Wreck To Bench Dyno A Kj-zem?

[chingon]

so you think

 

Indeed, everything that's been said is heresay/speculations, including BHR's comments. Not that it helps but I'm a Mech. Engineer and sort of analyze things from that point of view, which is, get things to work the best way possible, do it as simple as possible, and as cheap as possible. There are exception because of conflict between these "rules" of course.

[enginph]

I don't think anyone truely understands the full scope of the MCE, its just sort of a force of nature momentially harnessed then released.

 

Electronics and sensors have alot to play with it, there is ALOT of special coded programming in the ecu most cars couldn't even handle, those ebay chips for example can end up putting the car into some sort of safety mode where boost is limited or cut off and taking the revs beyond 2k will cause it to just stop and coast like you let off the gas.

 

I am with chingon, over exaggerated. It is the first MCE and first lysholm in a car, yes still more complex than an average car. But nothing so miraculous. Special coded programming? ECU should have the simplest code whatever it drives. It should have lots of lookup table and simple if-then loops.

[milenkogt]

looks like another chapter from mazda's history of making unique vehicles.... the rx-7 for instance is still to this day an amazing performance product from mazda.

 

and of course it seems over exaggerated, to people who don't know about the KJZEM specifications, design and reasoning then yes it will seem complex.

 

i'm just saying that if you want to understand the miller cycle/KJZEM then read about it, find diagrams, hell get a used engine out of a junkyard and tinker away, hands on is always the best.

[///BHRpowered]

Like I said, I don't think you understand the scope, and its not that I understand it all either, but for years, and I mean years people have tried all kinds of things assuming its a simple thing and just hitting walls, the MCE is alive, constantly thinking, adapting to prevent tampering.

 

No one honors there millenia more so then me, and I mean no one, anyone who debates that is on crack and smoking the sterile lining of my carcapsule.

 

if you took it all out as 1 item, kept all the vacuum lines, wiring, sensors, and ecu then sure it would run, but its all that extra stuff that makes a difference, and unlike other cars where 1 bad thing is a bad thing to replace, on the MCE 1 single problem can be to light in 5 other areas totally unrelated. You could get a simple short block from GM, hook up coolant, fuel, exhaust, a simple handful of connections wiring harnass and then just turn the key

[latinopikachu]

the MCE is alive, constantly thinking, adapting to prevent tampering.

a lucid moment from bhr... that is the most perfect way i've heard the mce described

 

if you took it all out as 1 item, kept all the vacuum lines, wiring, sensors, and ecu then sure it would run, but its all that extra stuff that makes a difference, and unlike other cars where 1 bad thing is a bad thing to replace, on the MCE 1 single problem can be to light in 5 other areas totally unrelated. You could get a simple short block from GM, hook up coolant, fuel, exhaust, a simple handful of connections wiring harnass and then just turn the key

that's pretty much true. it relies on a whole bunch of other shit besides air, fuel and water. it wants to see too many other things before its "ok i'll run normally" than just a simple ordinary engine.

 

[chingon]

the MCE is alive, constantly thinking, adapting to prevent tampering.

a lucid moment from bhr... that is the most perfect way i've heard the mce described

 

if you took it all out as 1 item, kept all the vacuum lines, wiring, sensors, and ecu then sure it would run, but its all that extra stuff that makes a difference, and unlike other cars where 1 bad thing is a bad thing to replace, on the MCE 1 single problem can be to light in 5 other areas totally unrelated. You could get a simple short block from GM, hook up coolant, fuel, exhaust, a simple handful of connections wiring harnass and then just turn the key

that's pretty much true. it relies on a whole bunch of other shit besides air, fuel and water. it wants to see too many other things before its "ok i'll run normally" than just a simple ordinary engine.

 

I think mainly is all the unrelated engine stuff that's causing the frustration. And it's not just the miller but all new engines. It used to be that all you needed were the engine, sensors on the block, maf, the ecu, and wiring harness. Now it's ecu, harness, sensors, abs computer, traction control computer, tranny computer/sensors, anti theft and ignition cylinder, key, etc, etc... All the other "stuff" requires factory "delete" and I don't have the plug-in modules for it. I guess I also want to know if companies like JET offer the options of removing the uneeded stuff.

 

With newer otto engines, it's sometimes easier to cope w/all the crap because the same family engine has existed in the past w/less complicated electronics. This does not seem to be the case w/the miller however.

 

I haven't looked into the intake setup (which seems rather intricate), but I think that would be the first thing to go. Not taking into account the VRIS stuff it seems that it's designed to bypass the intercoolers for some unknown reason (reduce pressure drop and improve throttle response would be my guess). If I were to go w/standalone which is the more expensive/time-consuming route, I think a simple maf to supercharger to intercoolers to intake would be the ticket. Perhaps use intake manifolds from other K family engines or modify the stockers to suit my needs. But it's in the fuel maps where I feel there's uncharted territory. If I could see them and compare w/otto ones, than I'd have a better indication of how and where to start.

[chingon]

I think I've found what I needed in the millenia fsm. It doesn't seem to be as bad as I originally thought.

[///BHRpowered]

be careful, its always thinking.

[enginph]

So what will this research about? Will you just run a MCE? Dont forget to cool down intercoolers or you will find they are hella hot, like those car magazine testing guys.. They dynoed MCE and as expected intercoolers got very hot.

 

[latinopikachu]

be careful, its always thinking.

[///BHRpowered]

intercooler sprayers make a huge difference in maintaining, but no improving performance.

[chingon]

OK, the research is about methods for efficiency improvements.

 

Now, does anyone know at what speeds/rpm the clutch engages on the supercharger? Is it on all the time.... wait I just looked at some pics and it seems like it's just a regular pulley and no electro-magnetic clutch. Where the hell did I read it had one? So is there one?

 

If there's no clutch, than forget the millenia engine.

 

The options will be:

 

Ecotec Supercharged off cobalt SS and bumped compression with gm performance camshaft advanced to a setting near the millenia's and tune from there. Probably make a vvt hybrid from all the ecotec variants.

 

The other, and this one I like

 

Corvette ZR-1 ls9 w/custom cam and bumped compression using ls3 pistons.

 

Now, the thing that must still be resolved is figure out the combustion chamber compression pressures and determine if the factory limited boost is enough. In other words, the millenia sc produces 15 psi (from fsm) and these gm sc's do not. If this can be made up by bumping compression ratio even more, than so be it.

 

Also, the twin screw supercharger is like 30 % more efficient than other roots blowers, and if we recall, the advantage of the miller cycle is that the supercharger is more efficient than the engine at producing pressure. Is this only worth pursuing w/nothing else other than a twin screw?

 

Another is use a GMC 3800 supercharged v6

 

as for the plans, we are keeping those quiets at the moment

[latinopikachu]

no, the millenia has no clutch. its always spinning, without it the engine wouldnt run

[enginph]

OK, the research is about methods for efficiency improvements.

 

Now, does anyone know at what speeds/rpm the clutch engages on the supercharger? Is it on all the time.... wait I just looked at some pics and it seems like it's just a regular pulley and no electro-magnetic clutch. Where the hell did I read it had one? So is there one?

 

If there's no clutch, than forget the millenia engine.

 

The options will be:

 

Ecotec Supercharged off cobalt SS and bumped compression with gm performance camshaft advanced to a setting near the millenia's and tune from there. Probably make a vvt hybrid from all the ecotec variants.

 

The other, and this one I like

 

Corvette ZR-1 ls9 w/custom cam and bumped compression using ls3 pistons.

 

Now, the thing that must still be resolved is figure out the combustion chamber compression pressures and determine if the factory limited boost is enough. In other words, the millenia sc produces 15 psi (from fsm) and these gm sc's do not. If this can be made up by bumping compression ratio even more, than so be it.

 

Also, the twin screw supercharger is like 30 % more efficient than other roots blowers, and if we recall, the advantage of the miller cycle is that the supercharger is more efficient than the engine at producing pressure. Is this only worth pursuing w/nothing else other than a twin screw?

 

Another is use a GMC 3800 supercharged v6

 

as for the plans, we are keeping those quiets at the moment

 

Well Lat is correct of course. If you thought MCE has a clutch you should revisit your engine 101 notes. A MCE without a s/c (even partially) is atkinson cycle, if it ever runs...

 

[Jdubs99]

*shifty* I wonder about changing that 4k rpm point down to 2.5.

[latinopikachu]

incorrect, an mce without a supercharger is a no-cycle engine, meaning it doesnt run

[ing-schu@online.no]

Lat, I think you're wrong.

 

Read this:

 

Main technical features

 

To start with, the Twin Phaser system adopts new cam lobes which allow the phase angle to be varied by 50° on both axes. This makes it possible to improve performance because the best phase can be chosen at all engine speeds, and to reduce consumption and emissions with partial loads, by the Miller cycle.

 

This is found in an Alfa Romeo Brera 2,2, which has no SC.

 

Her is a Link

[mts]

The Millenia MCE will not run without the S/C, but then again... who has taken the time to block all of the ports and change the intakes?

[enginph]

They use the term "miller cycle" wrong. Mazda does it since they built a successful MCE before which goes beyond being a prototype and still running fine and they wanna attribute to that. I dont know why wouldnt alfa use the term atkinson cycle though.

 

wiki:

 

The Atkinson cycle may also refer to a four stroke piston engine in which the intake valve is held open longer than normal to allow a reverse flow of intake air into the intake manifold. Compression is reduced (for a time the air is escaping the cylinder freely rather than being compressed) but the expansion process is unchanged. This means the compression ratio is smaller than the expansion ratio. Heat gained from burning fuel increases the pressure, thereby forcing the piston to move, expanding the air volume beyond the volume when compression began. For any given portion of air, the greater expansion ratio allows more energy to be converted from heat to useful mechanical energy meaning the engine is more efficient.

 

The disadvantage of the four-stroke Atkinson-cycle engine versus the more common Otto-cycle engine is reduced power density. Because a smaller portion of the intake stroke is devoted to compressing the intake air, an Atkinson-cycle engine does not take in as much air as would a similarly designed and sized Otto-cycle engine.

 

Four stroke engines of this type with this same type of intake valve motion but with forced induction (supercharging) are known as Miller cycle engines.

 

 

 

[latinopikachu]

i wonder what a mce would sound like if you tried to run it without the SC, all breathy and shit orwould it just crank

[enginph]

i wonder what a mce would sound like if you tried to run it without the SC, all breathy and shit orwould it just crank

 

Well they took out the s/c in mazda2 and it runs. Dont know if milly would start though..

 

[chingon]

i wonder what a mce would sound like if you tried to run it without the SC, all breathy and shit orwould it just crank

 

Well they took out the s/c in mazda2 and it runs. Dont know if milly would start though..

 

 

what is the boost pressure at idle? Anyone have an rpm vs boost graph? Also, the fsm I have seems to skip some critical sections, the engine rebuild section isn't there. It's supposed to be "c" section I would guess since the index jumps from section b to d. I'm guessing it's a manual all its own? Anywhere to download it?

 

I was quickly looking through an article (haven't read it jet) but it reminded me of the KJ

 

As far as the cycle not working w/o a supercharger... I'm not so sure, the atkinson cycle on most hybrids runs w/o a supercharger. Basically you've got the efficiency gain from pumping out some of the air but not restoring it afterwards.

 

 

 

[///BHRpowered]

any status updates if this was completed?

[millySHID]

BHR, back when you said smoke out of the back pipe, were you referring to blue smoke aka oil?

 

Because when i start my milly, not all the time but sometimes i see blue smoke, just when i start it though. And obv when its cold i see the vapour from the gas and shit, but the blue oil smoke only when i start it.

[///BHRpowered]

THICK, very thick you know something is wrong smoke is bad

 

very thin white smoke like ANY car might emite on a car day is perfectly fine, lat is just overreacting to nothing