An Explosive Debate

[Troutman]

Australia

In 1996, a man with an automatic rifle killed 35 at Port Arthur, Tasmania. Despite my disagreements with many of his other policies, I think Prime Minister John Howard responded brilliantly. He tightened gun ownership laws considerably and organied a 'buy back' scheme where financial incentives were given for handing in firearms. Huge quantities of guns were destroyed. There have been no massacres to speak of in Australia since that time.

 

United States

In 2007 a man has killed 33, and yet every indication is that yet again there will be absolutely nothing done about the nation's infamous, weak gun laws. Here are a few points to consider:

 

* Whilst 33 deaths in one incident will make international headlines, even a thousand American firearm-caused deaths spread out over the country will not batter an eyelid.

* The pro-gun lobby argue passionately that they have a "right" to a firearm, forgetting that they lose the right to feel safe as they walk down the street from some psycho drug-addict with an uzi.

* In an international culture of survival-of-the-fittest capitalist competition, every-man-for-himself selfishness, apathy towards the suffering of others, etc, it is very obvious that many men will crack it. Call them what you will, but they are not going anywhere.

* By international standards, the only places where children normally have any access to firearms are in war-torn parts of, say, Sierra Leone where they are brainwashed soldiers. It is not the mark of a 1st world society.

 

Sometimes reality is harsh, and the reality is this: if the US laws do not change, no one should complain, nor be 'shocked', no matter how much blood is shed needlessly on the streets.

 

Apologies if this offends, I did say it was an explosive debate.

[ing-schu@online.no]

I concur.

 

In fact I find myself rather doubtful about the whole idea of visiting, after realizing how easy it is to obtain small arms. It is truly insane. No debate, end of story.

 

But then; dementia makes us wanna do many strange things...

[///BHRpowered]

there are actually more gun control laws then the international community is let on to, now it is in our basic right "the right to bear arms" now that was put in because it was written during the revolutionary war, and britian didn't allow us, hence unable to defend ourselfs.

 

plus its a catch 22, we need guns because we have some fucked up people, immigrants for exmaple, like it or not are the vast cause of rape, murder, and drug rings, then of course there is gang violence, uif they didn't use a gun, they would use a knife or something eles, and that doesn't make the news, how often someone is beaten in a gang with just a pipe or chains or something, gun related crimes are actually very small compared to over all.

 

the problem we have is that the punishments are far 2 lax so people don't care, capital punishment should be required in all countries period, but some of the other crap we have, its just sad, and then we do nothing against the drunken whores.

 

I know in the UK for example not even police carry guns, that would never fly here, from the police or the publics standpoint, example, about 2 months ago some very local news. someone was at an ihop and started throwing cups and stuff, some police officers on there break, but in uniform and basically on duty tried to calm him down, he stabbed on of them in the hand with the same fork he had been eating pancakes with and ran, when he got outside he tried to run downthe officer with his car, the officer shot out the tires to save his own life, and the kid crashed into a light pole and was killed, now a few days later it came out he was cracked out of his mind and probably would have crashed with someone on the road and killed 2? so again, your cutting your loses.

 

Another issue is that in the international news it seems like its 2 easy to get guns, not at all.

 

you must be 18 to own a shotgun (limit of 1) and 21 for a hand gun, and actually they changed the law so anyone born after 1985? I think must be 21 for any gun period. and even then you can only buy 1 every 6 months or something, limits of ammo unless purchased and used at a licensed shooting range.

 

any store that sells guns has to carry a special, expensive, and hard to get license, when you go in to purchase a gun there is a 3-10 day waiting period (depending on the state) where they conduct a full background check. If you have ever been charged with (not convicted) charged with a felony, or convicted of any domestic or violent crime, you can't get one plain and simple for something like 10 years.

 

bottom line its very hard to get a gun, but if you are an adult who is willing to go through the steps and don't have anything in your past you can get one, but its time consuming. I don't want to hear shit about this and gun control, he legally purchased 1 gun and stole the other, then filed the serial numbers off...guns have serial numbers weither you like it or not, and there not just on the outside as you might think, in the u.s there in several places, including microlaser inscribed.

 

It disgusts me when people use events like this to get back on there hobby horse and push a political issue without giving any thought.

 

You also have to consider history with the wild west and truely unknown.

 

It would be no easier to ban guns in the U.S then it woudl to place a 65mph speed limit along the autobahn

[mts]

 

plus its a catch 22, we need guns because we have some fucked up people, immigrants for exmaple, like it or not are the vast cause of rape, murder, and drug rings, then of course there is gang violence, uif they didn't use a gun, they would use a knife or something eles, and that doesn't make the news, how often someone is beaten in a gang with just a pipe or chains or something, gun related crimes are actually very small compared to over all.

 

More rapes and crimes of the sort are committed by the "normal" ignorant US citizens than any committed by immigrants. Plus there is a group of so called "intellectuals", like yourself, that are no better than the criminals they chastize.

 

[///BHRpowered]

no mts, actually a new recent report from several universities says an illegal immigrant is 72% more likely to commite a crime, and when you consider they have already committed a felony by illegally entering the country its basically a repeat, it does go on to say that legal immigrants are only something like 18% more likely.

 

And no, if I ever snap you won't get fancy letters, you won't find me, and there will be no survivors

[Troutman]

Interesting... I do think Australia has a decent balance though. Police have firearms (albeit somewhat basic pistols), the general public do not. It makes it harder for psychos to do real damage - bottom line.

 

Of course the US could not change its laws overnight, but even a small move in the direction of reducing firearm usage over time (eg convicted felons are barred all access to firearms for life, not 10 years) would be a good response to recent incidents. To do nothing would be to invite further attacks of this nature. Yes people could use knives, but good luck to anyone killing 33 people in a short period using knives!

[///BHRpowered]

no, infact changing laws because of this would be the worst thing anyone could do, simply because it would a quick reaction instead of a proactive approach, people that use these events as a political hobby horse disgust even me.

 

This stupid chink, he makes some excellent points about whores an the people at tech, it is well known I hate the kinds of people it turns people into, but still, an ignorant chink, and actually, if there were stricter laws, he would have simply gotton a gun somewhere eles instead of waiting and taking longer to do it legally.

 

Also there is a common myth from movies that all police carry assulat rifles and what have you, which is not true, officers carry a basic firearm (usually a glock) 9mm and are only allowed to have 2 ammo clips. heavy patrol units keep a single shotgun in there cruiser, which never use to happen, it is in repsonse to a bank robbery some years ago in ca where the robbers had bullet proof vests and assualt rifles, basically outgunning police to the extreme degree.

 

It is the swat team, which is almost never called that carries the big stuff, also the u.s has the most up to date and well tracked databse of serial numbers for weapons, and you better be damn sure if you ever sell, lose your gun, or are robbed you report it asap or eles you can be charged with whatever the other person does etc.

[Dallasaurora]

Some of our police force are armed and yes although you will never eliminate the undergorund culture, at least in the UK we don't have the stupid gun mentality that seems to exist in the US.

 

But there sre still plenty more ways to kill and maim people so it's all relative I suppose.

[ing-schu@online.no]

Deliberate killings will always be possible with various methods.

 

One problem with all these small arms floating around is all the accident killings or injuries, like when kids get hold of them.

[MazdaMomma]

Guns are required to have a safety lock on them to prevent children from accidentally killing themselves or others.

 

The problem is, most kids can figure out how to remove said lock pretty damn quick.

 

They are also supposed to be locked in a gun case and in-accessible to children. It is the parent's responsibility to do this. However, there are some really retarded and stupid parents out there.

[Troutman]

Most parents weren't even brought up correctly themselves.

[///BHRpowered]

the UK is quite different though dallas, here we..er, I guess you came over and it was all unknown, if you didn't have a way of defending yourself you would be killed off, it was truely the wild blue yonder, which became the wild west, and the wars, etc, all leading up to the cold war where the treat of both nuclear war and soviet invasion was not only in everyones mind, but possible. Its really only been 17 years in the past 250, er well 450 years that people can begin to calm down, and then stuff like this happens.

 

Fact of the matter is if they didn't use a gun they would use something else, how many people are beatin with a club or something in the UK?

[Dallasaurora]

True to some extent which is why I said it's all relative. But then I don't think a drive-by 'clubbing' has the same effect. And a mass clubbing is unlikely to result in fatalies on a large scale.

 

If some thug confronted me with a baseball bat rather than some small firearm demanding my hard-earned cash, I would be more inclined to rip his face off than just hand it over.

 

That being said though, in the UK our problem seems to be knives, machetes etc. which can be just as bad.

[mts]

That is it... blame the past for today's misgivings.... smarten up.

[ing-schu@online.no]

That is it... blame the past for today's misgivings.... smarten up.

 

Indeed. Americans ought to have learned a lot from their mistakes during post WW2, but apparently they're not able to.

[mts]

Not able to? They cannot see past tomorrow.... let alone the big picture.

[ing-schu@online.no]

Big pictures are hard to comprehend when you are as narrowminded let alone narrowsighted as GFWB

[mts]

Gun Firing Walmart Buyers?

[Renboy]

BHR, you think it's reasonable to sell granades to someone, and then make bigger grenades to protect yourself? That's idiotic. The guns that are on the street are there because they were stolen. If the person that a gun was stolen from didn't have a gun in the first place, then it wouldn't be on the street. And you consider a 3-10 day waiting period to be a restrictive law? Why don't they do psychological testing before handing one over? I honestly think hand guns should be banned, there's absolutely no need for them. I understand rifles for hunters, but definitely not handguns. Even rifles are for bitches. Some asshole gets a rifle that can kill a rhino from 1000 meters (yards), covers himself in fatigues so the animal can't see him, then sprays himself with animal piss to attract the animal. They do all this and have the audasity to call it a sport. That's a fucking mercy killing, not a sport. You want to impress me, kill the animal with a knife while you're running through the woods screaming and dressed in a bright orange jumpsuit. That would be sport.

 

I don't understand how an entire culture can be so stupid. Buying a gun to potentially protect yourself from your neighbour that also legally bought a gun. Furthermore, you have to have the gun locked up, and have the ammo separate from the gun. That makes it really useful in it's time of need. What are you going to ask the burglur to wait while you unlock the gun, then load it?

[Synesthesia]

It is all part of engrained history, now the failure or some may be the result. In the U.S if you are ever sent to a mental clinic for any reason you are barred from purchasing ANY firearm for a period of 10 years from your release. Now because he was referred to a center and not offically admitted that record was never sent to state police and hte fbi which maintains a list of "do not sell to's"

 

Another excellent point that was made, but not by the media is this, and I urge you all to consider this when you think gun control is the issue.

 

This the very defination of premediated, If he didn't get a gun, he would have made a bomb and most likely killed many many more people. What then? wipe everyones minds of knowledge? The fact of tjhe matter is that you cannot prevent events like this, no matter what you do, its going to happen regardless, pretending you can prevent this, pretending there is a solution only invites things like this to occur again and again.

[Renboy]

For all the gun loving idiots out there, if they're so safe and offer so much protection on the streets, then why shouldn't they be allowed on planes? I mean with all that protection, nothing bad could happen, right?

[Dallasaurora]

You're missing the point. Sure anyone can make a bomb but we're talking about the stupid gun culture that exists in the US. Even in the 70s/80s when the IRA were at their most active in the UK, I bet they didn't cause half as many fatalities as is caused through the possession of firearms in the US.

 

Stevie Wonder made an excellent song about banning handguns on his 'Conversation Peace' album.

[///BHRpowered]

Its simply 2 engrained, its almost instinct.

 

And actually ren, guns ARE allowed on planes, both domestically and internationally, now, just like the gun control laws in the U.S there are alot of hoops you have to jump though, you have to purchase a special ticket, you have to call ahead and tell them exactly what your bringing, including the supply number before you arrive at the airport, when you get there you have to go to a special room with techs look everything over and make sure no ammo accompanies the weapon, it is then locked in a special FAA lockable case, and put in with general luggage, BUT NOT A CARRY ON. when you arrive you have to go through everything in reverse to get it back.

 

the problem with the international community is they don't see that we have more or less the same gun control laws as many countries, infact because we keep such better records its harder for someone to get a gun who shouldn't have it.

 

The issue I have been trying to explain is that its culture, we simply have people who are willing to spend the extra time and money to jump through the hoops.

 

Its no different then say getting a drivers license in germany, most americans would never go through all of that or obey the laws, they would laugh at the price of gas and use public transit, yet in germany its just a way of life.

 

Believe me ren, I'm the first person who thinks all of society needs to change to avoid its downward spiral

[Dallasaurora]

Just get rid of the guns...period !!

[mts]

Make it cost $300 per bullet and see how many are let loose...