cuto Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 Ok... I've found the only (to the best of my knowledge) Xedos 9 MCE running on LPG. Found it in spritmonitor.de. It's a year 2000 Xedos 9, converted to run on LPG since 2005. After 50.000 Km's on LPG the owner reports no difference on the engine behavior. I emailed the guy : he has a toroidal tank with 60 L and a cilindrical one with 70 L on the trunk. With 130 L of LPG car has an autonomy of 800 Km on LPG. Added to the gas tank, currently the car can run more or less 1300 KM without refueling. Asked him for pics of engine and tanks. link: http://www.spritmonitor.de/en/detail/315724.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
///BHRpowered Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 Im disgusted by this hippie find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt64341 Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I would be interested to see what it makes for power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troutman Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 On the plus side, LPG has a very high octane rating. It usually makes far less power because traditional systems are highly inefficient (carby basically), and also dual fuel LPG/petrol systems are tuned as a compromise so excel at neither. When LPG is done properly with a single-fuel set-up and gas injection, it actually boosts power by maybe 5%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuto Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 And a very low co2 emissions. A company here stated that it would be easy to set up a full sequential LPG injection system (top notch) on my Xedos. Too bad liquid injection of LPG is forbidden in Portugal , that would be very nice! As far as the hippie part, damn: with an investment of 2.000 Dollars, i would pay 0,50 Euros a litre of GPL, instead of 1,2 euros of gas. On LPG it would do 15 L/ 100 KM, dropping the fuel costs to half... Full refund of the investment in about a year and a half (20.000 km a year) mmmmmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troutman Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Similar prices to here. We also have government grants for LPG conversions, in which the government pays up to $2000 towards the conversions. I understand LPG is all but unheard of in the US though. The main drawback aside from usually having a smaller, yet bulkier tank typically in the boot is that if you run out of fuel, the car needs to be towed. It cannot be refuelled with a can. Also, additives may be required to avoid hardening of the valve stem seals (or something like that). There is a version of the Australian Ford Falcon available on straight LPG from the factory, and it has a surprising number of internal engine modifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ing-schu@online.no Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Interesting. On a NA car regular LPG conversion gives about 5% powerdrop, which is hardly noticeable during regular driving. Internal engine modifications should not be required. I've seen it in a german Xedos 6 2,0 as well. I believe it is wise to switch to gas regularly to keep both systems fresh though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginph Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I think the power drop is more than 5%. I constantly hear injection problems in Mazda3. I think LPG dissolves magnesium and causes the problem. Modern systems uses gasoline to start the engine and shift to LPG after some time as far as I know. In US there is CNG. Just like diesel, there is no price benefit. The stations are very rare. The range is very limited with average tanks. So only hippies in CA uses it IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ing-schu@online.no Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 It is quite common in Europe, like in Germany and Belgium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuto Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Similar prices to here. We also have government grants for LPG conversions, in which the government pays up to $2000 towards the conversions. I understand LPG is all but unheard of in the US though. The main drawback aside from usually having a smaller, yet bulkier tank typically in the boot is that if you run out of fuel, the car needs to be towed. It cannot be refuelled with a can. Also, additives may be required to avoid hardening of the valve stem seals (or something like that). There is a version of the Australian Ford Falcon available on straight LPG from the factory, and it has a surprising number of internal engine modifications. Trout, there's no need to tow the car! If you run out of LPG the system immediately changes to gas. You have to have gas in the tank always because the engine starts with gasoline and switches to LPG automatically as soon as the engine reaches the right temperature (about 30 to 60 secs). So, if you run out of LPG, you continue driving to the next LPG pump...refuel and keep running on LPG. Also, as LPG is very dry , some engines like the hondas, with soft engine valves need an extra lubricant added to to LPG. Nowadays, any installer adds this lubrication (LT lubricator), ending anny valve knocking. Anyway, you get to chose if you run on gas or LPG by the flick of a switch. I drove a Volvo S80 T5 with LPG and noticed abolutely nothing different. Performance was great on both fuels. However a 5% power loss maybe expected, BUT with the newest LPG systems, some engines (like a Merc Kompressor) does not have a significant power loss. BTW: Portugal has some of the best LPG converters in the world and there's an LPG fuel pump on almost every fuel station ( i have 2 in a range of 4 km's from my home). As for the tanks ( a toroidal tank goes in the replacement tyre "pit") and usulally can have 60 L of LPG (40 to 45 L really, because LPG tanks never get fully empty), another one in the boot would give an easy 500 miles autonomy on LPG, added to the gasoline autonomy. The installer that i contacted just had an RX-8 on LPG! Very smart install, the key is, never shutting off the Original ECU, the LPG ECU does not in this case overide the gasoline ECU. On simple words, the original ECU does not "know" wether the car is on LPG or gasoline, allowing these more "complicated" engines to run very well on LPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
///BHRpowered Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I don't give a fuck about emissions, I wish my exhaust had burning baby penguins in it, and xedos the millenia is not a common car, I find it disgusting people will do these conversions, just buy a different god damn car, stop driving or stop complaining. Bottled water all the hippies drink is like 8 dollars a gallon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuto Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I don't give a fuck about emissions, I wish my exhaust had burning baby penguins in it, and xedos the millenia is not a common car, I find it disgusting people will do these conversions, just buy a different god damn car, stop driving or stop complaining. Bottled water all the hippies drink is like 8 dollars a gallon. As ur sig says: ur a figment of my imagination and i don't give a fuck about hippie haters ! Besides: any LPG kit can easily be taken off on any car, returning it to it's original state....so stop bitching or i'll hammer ur rice HID's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ing-schu@online.no Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 BHRs Millenia has certain unpleasant features generally known as rice, of which the spoiler is by far the worst. Coming to think about the increased octane rating of LPG; it may actually boost power in the Miller Cycle. A dyno run with both fueltypes would be very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuto Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 BHRs Millenia has certain unpleasant features generally known as rice, of which the spoiler is by far the worst. Coming to think about the increased octane rating of LPG; it may actually boost power in the Miller Cycle. A dyno run with both fueltypes would be very interesting. Yup X-man: i've read that the miller cycle could profit from the 104 (at least) octanes, and if the LPG could be injected in liquid form that would be almost certain. The advantage of a full seq LPG is that you could do a dyno on LPG and switch to gas in between dynos! Dunno if im gonna go with this all the way, still some doubts. But yheres a chance i might consider having 7 Euros/100 Kms cost instead of almost 15 Euros per 100 kms i'm having now. AND not like some guy we know: My Xedos is, with pleasure, my every day car! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginph Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I think BHR is right about converting a milly to LPG. People usually have engine problems with LPG and hence a converted car is cheaper in second hand market. I wouldnt do it to rx-8 or MCE. Just buy a cheap car or buy a stock LPG car. BTW I think it is not legal to get in to closed garages with an LPG car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
///BHRpowered Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 give it up xedos, the spoiler is stock and you know it, and without it, the lines just fall apart, the back end of the car is useless without it aftermarket is rice, and I'v seen some rice - none of which will go near my car. LPG cannot be easily removed, the same way an aftermarket tranny can be easily removed maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuto Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 give it up xedos, the spoiler is stock and you know it, and without it, the lines just fall apart, the back end of the car is useless without it aftermarket is rice, and I'v seen some rice - none of which will go near my car. LPG cannot be easily removed, the same way an aftermarket tranny can be easily removed maybe Cannot what???? Remove the LPG injectors, get new headers if you don't want to cover the holes, and thats abou it. You know nothing about LPG, if you say it's not easy to remove a kit. @Saint: LPG does not ruin engines, period. Crappy installers do. What LPG does to an engine is simple: if a petrol engine has bad gaskets or bad compression due to long mileage or bad use then running on LPG will show a rotten gasket or a compression problem pre existant! Here, no installer with government credentials gets a car on LPG without checking the engine. Of course that converting a not so well maintained engine to LPG will show the defects hidden by all the carbon build up.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ing-schu@online.no Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I've never heard of engine problems with LPG conversions either. Of course it can be removed without much fuss. Compare it with a NOS install, which is pretty close when it comes to tubing. But I believe most kits stay in the car once installed. When it comes to value, I believe most cars for sale with LPG conversion are either new or fairly new, or old with higher milage than average, due to the owners wish to get the most out of the install cost. People installing LPG often drive more than average. The typical car for sale here with LPG is at least 10 years old with 250k km plus on the odo, or a new US or jap big engined truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
///BHRpowered Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Its not an easy removel, tank, lines, injectors, tuning, its a pain the ass and anyoine who WASTES the time and money to convert should be shot, buy another car, stop bitching. people that bitch the most about the price of gas are the same people that spend all day drinking 8 dollar a gallon bottled water when you can get it for free almost anywhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuto Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Its not an easy removel, tank, lines, injectors, tuning, its a pain the ass and anyoine who WASTES the time and money to convert should be shot, buy another car, stop bitching. people that bitch the most about the price of gas are the same people that spend all day drinking 8 dollar a gallon bottled water when you can get it for free almost anywhere Get the hell outta my mind! P.S. i drink tap water only! P.P.S. tuning what???? you simply remove the freaking LPG ecu! Besides: you can always run on gas and leave all the LPG shit and give it away to the next hippie as an added bonus! biatchhhhhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
///BHRpowered Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 yes, remove ecu, or return ecu to stock if it was tuned, yet another step that is nothing but a pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuto Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 yes, remove ecu, or return ecu to stock if it was tuned, yet another step that is nothing but a pain. Dunno about there. But the original ECU stays untouched. All the mapping is copied to the the LPG ECU and modified there accordingly. Want some water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
///BHRpowered Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 no I don't want some water, I want burning baby penguins coming out my exhaust that actually does do some damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troutman Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latinopikachu Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 no, we've been over this. the spoiler ruins the damn lines of the car. see the xedos book for confirmation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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